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Talk:Badger
Creature weapons cannot be finessed In the notes, the statement "Further, the inclusion of weapon finesse among the creature's feats is difficult to justify with its dexterity lower than its strength." should be removed as it infers that creature weapons can be finessed, in error. There are many instances in the default monster palette that the weapon finesse feat was granted without it being applicable or useful to that blueprint. Otherwise, the rest of the current notes are valid. --Iconclast 14:15, May 5, 2012 (UTC) * Except, creature weapons can be finessed. --The Krit 15:38, May 5, 2012 (UTC) :* Hmmm. I just noticed that unarmed strike note now. So does the unarmed strike "anomaly" (I use that term intentionally because it doesn't seem to comply with the size constraints of typical finessable weaponry or use of fists) that must replace the creature weapon in order to make it finessable also change the damage type to bludgeoning? If not, is the damage changed to piercing/bludgeoning, piercing/slashing/bludgeoning or slashing/bludgeoning depending on which creature weapon appear on the skin? --Iconclast 18:17, May 5, 2012 (UTC) ::* It is not an anomaly. Finessable weapons are characterized by having the center of balance close to the hand. This is why the rapier (which is long) and the mace (which has significant weight) are both finessable. Creatures of course ought to be able to maneuver their claws with the ease of a hand motion already because the claws are their "hands". The damage type does not change as it technically is using a weapon rather than full unarmed strike (though many unarmed feats benefit creature weapons as well). WhiZard 19:07, May 5, 2012 (UTC) :::* (Apologies for posing this whole discussion on the badger talk page but it seems to interface with more than a single other article like natural weapon, weapon finesse & unarmed strike, anyway.) Your explanation is a sound and clear one, Whizard. Then, if I am grasping this, the finessed creature weapons will not prompt AoOs or exhibit bludgeoning damage as would occur with a standard unarmed strike. However, in the case where a creature weapon is NOT specified at all (nothing on skin), is that finessed unarmed strike subject to AoOs? That would be bludgeoning damage even though the creature may not possess physical features which could actually simulate that (like some of the birds, for instance). It's this whole concept of pseudo-unarmed strike with regard to natural weapons that is so confusing for me. --Iconclast 22:04, May 5, 2012 (UTC) ::::* The feat weapon proficiency (creature) is required for creature weapons to be equipped. Without this feat there can be no usage of creature weapons as they wouldn't be able to be equipped in the first place. Creatures do not tend to have this feat on their skins, but have it naturally among their list of feats. Player characters should not have this feat naturally, therefore it is only provided for them on polymorph skins so that they can use the creature weapons of that polymorph only so long as the polymorph lasts. The factors involved for what weapon a creature uses are dependent on overriding slots. The first priority is always given to the main and off-hand weapon(s). If a creature has weapons equipped in those slots it will use those weapons instead of its natural weapons. WhiZard 23:32, May 5, 2012 (UTC) ::* By "that unarmed strike note", you mean the one on weapon finesse? (If not, I am having a very hard time following the train of thought here.) That note could be misleading, so I just changed it. Is it better now? --The Krit 00:21, May 6, 2012 (UTC) :::* Yes, that was the one I had missed reading before, not misunderstood. I really just checked the identities of viable finessable weapons in the "Use:" list at the top of the article. What I now realize is that I was basing my universal understanding of the feat on what Bioware had described specifically for players and not toolset users. The rewording is useful, I feel, because the actual reading community is more diverse than just players, so that would help clear up the misunderstanding of those builders customizing monsters. I just figured if a weapon wasn't on the list, it couldn't be finessed, regardless of where it was defined in the inventory screen. Period. Silly, eh? Thanks to both you guys for hammering this home for me. --Iconclast 00:50, May 6, 2012 (UTC) ::::* Nah, not silly. Going by the list is a good move. (Most of the time. ;) ) And actually, come to think of it, there is still one detail I do not recall checking. I'll go put a question on the weapon finesse talk page. --The Krit 02:35, May 6, 2012 (UTC)